Can stored/leased 737s be used to substitute for grounded MAXs? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)What winglet airfoils are used on the Boeing B737?Can the parking brake be set on an 737-800 if the aircraft has no power?Where can I find (online) manuals for refueling A320/B737 for a given destination?How can I calculate the glide time for a B737 with engine failure?Why has Boeing used mini winglets on the 737-200?Why aren't 737s or A320s commonly used for transatlantic flights?Is the callout “minimums” on the 737 used to describe DH on precision approachesWhere are the grounded 737 Max planes being kept?Why are there 40 737 Max planes in flight when they have been grounded as not airworthy?Why can’t more older 737s be retrofitted with more newer winglets?
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Can stored/leased 737s be used to substitute for grounded MAXs?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)What winglet airfoils are used on the Boeing B737?Can the parking brake be set on an 737-800 if the aircraft has no power?Where can I find (online) manuals for refueling A320/B737 for a given destination?How can I calculate the glide time for a B737 with engine failure?Why has Boeing used mini winglets on the 737-200?Why aren't 737s or A320s commonly used for transatlantic flights?Is the callout “minimums” on the 737 used to describe DH on precision approachesWhere are the grounded 737 Max planes being kept?Why are there 40 737 Max planes in flight when they have been grounded as not airworthy?Why can’t more older 737s be retrofitted with more newer winglets?
$begingroup$
The 737 MAX was introduced relatively recently. I would have assumed they were replacing at least some older 737 models in operation with the major airlines that took them (eg Southwest, American, United, in the US). Did those airlines immediately sell off their older planes as the new ones joined their fleet? I see reports of huge flight cancellations from lack of the new aircraft. Since they have common type ratings with the earlier 737, what happened to the older planes that none of them can be pulled from storage or dry leased and put back into service? Surely this grounding is long enough to be worth the transient expense?
boeing-737 fleet
edited 1 hour ago
ymb1
70.9k7227378
asked 15 hours ago
Phil MillerPhil Miller
1186
New contributor
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The 737 MAX was introduced relatively recently. I would have assumed they were replacing at least some older 737 models in operation with the major airlines that took them (eg Southwest, American, United, in the US). Did those airlines immediately sell off their older planes as the new ones joined their fleet? I see reports of huge flight cancellations from lack of the new aircraft. Since they have common type ratings with the earlier 737, what happened to the older planes that none of them can be pulled from storage or dry leased and put back into service? Surely this grounding is long enough to be worth the transient expense?
boeing-737 fleet
edited 1 hour ago
ymb1
70.9k7227378
asked 15 hours ago
Phil MillerPhil Miller
1186
New contributor
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
If you have multiple questions (airlines selling old jets, consequences of regulations on other aircraft of the same type without a specific problematic device, economical consequences of ... I don't understand your last question) you should ask them separately.
$endgroup$
– Manu H
22 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The 737 MAX was introduced relatively recently. I would have assumed they were replacing at least some older 737 models in operation with the major airlines that took them (eg Southwest, American, United, in the US). Did those airlines immediately sell off their older planes as the new ones joined their fleet? I see reports of huge flight cancellations from lack of the new aircraft. Since they have common type ratings with the earlier 737, what happened to the older planes that none of them can be pulled from storage or dry leased and put back into service? Surely this grounding is long enough to be worth the transient expense?
boeing-737 fleet
edited 1 hour ago
ymb1
70.9k7227378
asked 15 hours ago
Phil MillerPhil Miller
1186
New contributor
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
The 737 MAX was introduced relatively recently. I would have assumed they were replacing at least some older 737 models in operation with the major airlines that took them (eg Southwest, American, United, in the US). Did those airlines immediately sell off their older planes as the new ones joined their fleet? I see reports of huge flight cancellations from lack of the new aircraft. Since they have common type ratings with the earlier 737, what happened to the older planes that none of them can be pulled from storage or dry leased and put back into service? Surely this grounding is long enough to be worth the transient expense?
boeing-737 fleet
boeing-737 fleet
edited 1 hour ago
ymb1
70.9k7227378
asked 15 hours ago
Phil MillerPhil Miller
1186
New contributor
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 1 hour ago
ymb1
70.9k7227378
asked 15 hours ago
Phil MillerPhil Miller
1186
New contributor
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 1 hour ago
ymb1
70.9k7227378
edited 1 hour ago
ymb1
70.9k7227378
edited 1 hour ago
ymb1
70.9k7227378
70.9k7227378
asked 15 hours ago
Phil MillerPhil Miller
1186
New contributor
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 15 hours ago
Phil MillerPhil Miller
1186
asked 15 hours ago
Phil MillerPhil Miller
1186
1186
New contributor
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Phil Miller is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$begingroup$
If you have multiple questions (airlines selling old jets, consequences of regulations on other aircraft of the same type without a specific problematic device, economical consequences of ... I don't understand your last question) you should ask them separately.
$endgroup$
– Manu H
22 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you have multiple questions (airlines selling old jets, consequences of regulations on other aircraft of the same type without a specific problematic device, economical consequences of ... I don't understand your last question) you should ask them separately.
$endgroup$
– Manu H
22 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you have multiple questions (airlines selling old jets, consequences of regulations on other aircraft of the same type without a specific problematic device, economical consequences of ... I don't understand your last question) you should ask them separately.
$endgroup$
– Manu H
22 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you have multiple questions (airlines selling old jets, consequences of regulations on other aircraft of the same type without a specific problematic device, economical consequences of ... I don't understand your last question) you should ask them separately.
$endgroup$
– Manu H
22 mins ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).
Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.
answered 13 hours ago
Ron BeyerRon Beyer
22.8k285108
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It's cheaper for the airline to cancel the flights because to a first approximation all other rival airlines would undergo the same cost. Therefore each affected airline can charge the passenger (you can charge to the extend that your rivals do without worries).
$endgroup$
– user189035
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.
Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).
While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.
answered 12 hours ago
user71659user71659
3,9051026
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
$endgroup$
– Phil Miller
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
I suspect "...tank interting requirements..." is a typo, but I can't figure out what word it should be. (Searches a bit.) "inerting"?
$endgroup$
– T.J. Crowder
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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active
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).
Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.
answered 13 hours ago
Ron BeyerRon Beyer
22.8k285108
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It's cheaper for the airline to cancel the flights because to a first approximation all other rival airlines would undergo the same cost. Therefore each affected airline can charge the passenger (you can charge to the extend that your rivals do without worries).
$endgroup$
– user189035
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).
Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.
answered 13 hours ago
Ron BeyerRon Beyer
22.8k285108
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
It's cheaper for the airline to cancel the flights because to a first approximation all other rival airlines would undergo the same cost. Therefore each affected airline can charge the passenger (you can charge to the extend that your rivals do without worries).
$endgroup$
– user189035
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).
Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.
answered 13 hours ago
Ron BeyerRon Beyer
22.8k285108
$endgroup$
It really isn't 1 new aircraft = 1 mothballed aircraft. Most of the 737 MAX aircraft were fleet expansions (for US carriers). The older aircraft get retired when they aren't economical to fly anymore, and even then a retired aircraft is often sold either to a scrap yard or to a lower budget operator. In order to bring an aircraft back into service they may have to go through C or D checks before they can be considered airworthy again (because old aircraft are often retired at a D-Check when it needs a major check).
Airlines need to schedule C/D checks out months in advance, each aircraft costing millions to go through the check and a month or more of downtime. There is only limited space available to do these checks, so even if they wanted to bring 10 aircraft back into service, it may take 6 months and cost $20-40 million. It's cheaper to cancel the flights.
answered 13 hours ago
Ron BeyerRon Beyer
22.8k285108
answered 13 hours ago
Ron BeyerRon Beyer
22.8k285108
answered 13 hours ago
Ron BeyerRon Beyer
22.8k285108
answered 13 hours ago
Ron BeyerRon Beyer
22.8k285108
22.8k285108
$begingroup$
It's cheaper for the airline to cancel the flights because to a first approximation all other rival airlines would undergo the same cost. Therefore each affected airline can charge the passenger (you can charge to the extend that your rivals do without worries).
$endgroup$
– user189035
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's cheaper for the airline to cancel the flights because to a first approximation all other rival airlines would undergo the same cost. Therefore each affected airline can charge the passenger (you can charge to the extend that your rivals do without worries).
$endgroup$
– user189035
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's cheaper for the airline to cancel the flights because to a first approximation all other rival airlines would undergo the same cost. Therefore each affected airline can charge the passenger (you can charge to the extend that your rivals do without worries).
$endgroup$
– user189035
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's cheaper for the airline to cancel the flights because to a first approximation all other rival airlines would undergo the same cost. Therefore each affected airline can charge the passenger (you can charge to the extend that your rivals do without worries).
$endgroup$
– user189035
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.
Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).
While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.
answered 12 hours ago
user71659user71659
3,9051026
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
$endgroup$
– Phil Miller
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
I suspect "...tank interting requirements..." is a typo, but I can't figure out what word it should be. (Searches a bit.) "inerting"?
$endgroup$
– T.J. Crowder
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.
Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).
While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.
answered 12 hours ago
user71659user71659
3,9051026
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
$endgroup$
– Phil Miller
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
I suspect "...tank interting requirements..." is a typo, but I can't figure out what word it should be. (Searches a bit.) "inerting"?
$endgroup$
– T.J. Crowder
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.
Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).
While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.
answered 12 hours ago
user71659user71659
3,9051026
$endgroup$
The main problem is in the United States, the 737 Classics are banned beginning December 2017, due to fuel tank interting requirements. In particular, Southwest's Classic replacement schedule was driven by this, their last flight was in October 2017. They have a number of parked Classics, but they can't be operated in the US. On the other hand, the 737NG is new enough that there isn't a significant excess fleet.
Due to the TWA Flight 800 explosion, FAA required retrofit of fuel tank inerting on most aircraft with center tanks. This system purges some center tank oxygen with nitrogen, in order to reduce the risk of explosion if there's a spark. EASA did not require retrofit, and the MD-80 is exempt (no heat sources by its tank).
While a retrofit was developed for the 737 Classic, the cost of the system, coupled with the age of the aircraft, and the 737 skin issues, meant that all the big US carriers chose to retire remaining 737 Classics as of the deadline, rather than retrofit.
answered 12 hours ago
user71659user71659
3,9051026
edited 12 hours ago
answered 12 hours ago
user71659user71659
3,9051026
answered 12 hours ago
user71659user71659
3,9051026
answered 12 hours ago
user71659user71659
3,9051026
3,9051026
$begingroup$
Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
$endgroup$
– Phil Miller
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
I suspect "...tank interting requirements..." is a typo, but I can't figure out what word it should be. (Searches a bit.) "inerting"?
$endgroup$
– T.J. Crowder
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
$endgroup$
– Phil Miller
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
I suspect "...tank interting requirements..." is a typo, but I can't figure out what word it should be. (Searches a bit.) "inerting"?
$endgroup$
– T.J. Crowder
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
$endgroup$
– Phil Miller
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks. To be clear, 737 Classic are the -4/5/600 set, right?
$endgroup$
– Phil Miller
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PhilMiller The 737 "Classic" is the 300/400/500 series.The -600/700/800/900 is the NG.
$endgroup$
– Ron Beyer
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
I suspect "...tank interting requirements..." is a typo, but I can't figure out what word it should be. (Searches a bit.) "inerting"?
$endgroup$
– T.J. Crowder
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I suspect "...tank interting requirements..." is a typo, but I can't figure out what word it should be. (Searches a bit.) "inerting"?
$endgroup$
– T.J. Crowder
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Phil Miller is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Phil Miller is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Phil Miller is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Phil Miller is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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$begingroup$
If you have multiple questions (airlines selling old jets, consequences of regulations on other aircraft of the same type without a specific problematic device, economical consequences of ... I don't understand your last question) you should ask them separately.
$endgroup$
– Manu H
22 mins ago